In this, episode 7 of The Unknown Strength Podcast, your host Macgregor McNair sits down with world renowned strength and conditioning coach and author, Stephane Cazeault. Stephane is the former director of strength and conditioning for the Poliquin Group, the world’s leading provider of continuing education for Strength coaches. Since his time at Poliquin Group, Stephane has founded his very own world-class strength and conditioning facility, Kilo Strength Society in Huntington Beach, California.
Stephane has held the role of head strength and conditioning coach for countless high profile professional athletes from the NFL, NHL, MLB, Rugby, Triathlon, Soccer, MMA, Wrestling, Judo and other martial arts/combat sports disciplines. At Kilo Strength Society, Stephane and the team are providing some of the most cutting-edge training and education packages on the market today.
In the idyllic setting of Kilo Strength Society, Huntington Beach California where Stephane hosted Mac for a 2 day mentorship consultation, Mac and Stephane discuss everything pertaining to Stephane’s background, S&C for fighters, high-level strength and conditioning concepts, rest and recovery strategies for athletes, and a whole range of topics you won’t want to miss!
This is such a value-packed episode, we are sure that you will be blown away by some of the insights Steph and Mac uncover.
Get in touch with Stephane and the crew at Kilo Strength Society on Facebook and Instagram, or on their website www.kilostrengthsociety.com
Mac: Alright. Thanks very much for joining us on the unknown strength podcast, this is episode 7 and extra special episode today. We’re coming at you live from Huntington Beach California. I’m here at the KILO Strength Society headquarters with a very special guest Mr. Stephane Cazeault. Stephane and I first met couple of years ago, in Rhode Island, where I was doing the Poliquin group PICP level 4 certification, and Stephane was director of strength and conditioning at Poliquin group. Since then Stephane has moved on and created his own amazing strength and conditioning facility-here in Huntington, and I’ll let Stephane get into a little bit more about that in a minute-but Stephane- How are you doing? And thanks for joining us.
Stephane: Very good MacGregor, I am happy to be here with you.
Mac: Excellent. As I said this is such an amazing facility, thank you so much for hosting me for the last couple of days. It’s been amazing. So why don’t we get into the thick of things and you tell us a little bit about your background and how you got started in the strength and conditioning field.
Stephane: Yeah, so my background is- I grew up in a small town in Quebec Canada. I was very active kid, into sports and everything. Parents moved to Western African, Burkina Faso when I was eight and nine years old. At that point food was kind of scarce and when we got back to Canada in 1986 and with lack of knowledge and nutrition, my parents just bought whatever I wanted as far as food goes. So from the age of 9 and 11 I kind of blew up a little bit, and got a little bit fatter, but at the same time I was involved in Judo and I was always competing with guys little bit older than me, because of my body weight. So like around 11 years of age I started becoming a little self-conscious of that and that’s where I started being intrigued by body-building. Like everybody was “Arnold” and there’s was like “Sylvester Stallone” , “Jean Claude Van Damme” at the time on TV, and I kind of wanted to look like them so I told my dad for Christmas “Dad I wanted weights to start training”. My dad got so excited because he used to train when he was a teenager, so the next day I get back from school and had that York cement barbell weight kit, and a York Bench and some little dumb-bells, and he’s like “We’re gonna wake up in the morning before school and we’re gonna train together.” So I trained with my dad, but his knowledge was not very- for instance- barbell bent over row he would pull the bar-bell to his chest because the barbell touch his chest, he thought he was working his pectorals.
Mac: Right. [Laughter]
Stephane: That was the level of knowledge. But and then, it just started there, and I was training every day and really enjoyed it, and I got involved in American Football and my training started to shift a little bit more for athletic purposes and when I was fourteen years of age I saw show on a Saturday morning, and an American Channel and they showed the Tampa Bay Buccaneer’s Strength and conditioning staff and their new facility. And I remember being so impressed by the big gym and coaches and the football players training there, I was like “Wow, that’s what I want to do when I grow up.” So from that day on, I started reading on training , writing programs for my friend, for myself, and when I went to university-from the get go- I knew that I wanted to be a strength and conditioning coach and I knew that I wanted to work with NFL players. But being in Canada you don’t really have access to this. You have CFL, but it’s lower scale, the income of those players is not that significant-
Mac: Compared to the NFL-
Stephane: Compared to the NFL. When I went university the last two years you could choose if you wanted to go phys-ed (physical education), health or sports science. I decided to go sport science to get all the knowledge I could on that aspect and once I graduated-well in fact I was still at university- but I started training in the commercial gym facility. So I was training gen-pop (general population), but as I graduated I wanted to shift my focus more to performance, but with time working with in that high-end facility in Montreal called the Sanctuaire was like very high-end gen-pop, I made a name for myself and I started attracting amateur athletes; basketball players, rowers, marathon runners, triathletes, stuff like that, actors-need to get ready for movies and photo shoots, stuff like that. I started to doing more continued education and eventually that was in 1998, now flash-forward to 2005, I had the opportunity to move to the United States to work in the high performance center in St. Louis. The ownership there was a Chiropractor and I was the head of training and we had professional athletes, it was hockey at first but we finally got football-which was now finally my dream- then we had baseball, and – did this from 2005 to 2012. Then I was approached to work at Poliquin group because I’ve always want to be part of Poliquin group because in my earlier days I took the job and I spent four years there, as the head of strength and conditioning and I taught some classes-like yours for instance- and get some experience, and then in 2016 I resigned and started KILO Strength Society.
Mac: Emm, fantastic. And none of our listeners can see some of these pictures that you’ve got on the wall in here. In the facility- I see baseball players, I see NFL football players, I see NHL hockey players, triathletes, all kinds of athletes, signed pictures up on the wall here. Can you just share who some of these guys are?
Stephane: Yeah. So the athlete I trained the longest who was basically his entire career was Stephen Jackson, who was – he’s retired now- but he was a star like NFL running back. Matt Holliday baseball, Chris Carpenter in baseball, I had Adam Wainwright and Dennis Wideman in Hockey , Drew Bennett, Barby Chappel and a bunch. The majority was football, hockey and baseball but I also trained athletes in many different sports, wrestling, Judo, MMA, rugby, soccer, I trained Ever Mitts -for a little bit, he was under USA soccer team for a while. So it’s just a wide range of sports.
Mac: And lot of high profile athletes in there as well.
Mac: That’s incredible. So, tell us a little bit about, when you were coming up the ranks as a young strength and conditioning coach, who were some of your biggest influences in the industry.
Stephane: Yeah, so the one that really changed my outtake on training was Charles Poliquin. When I first read an article he wrote in 1997 in muscle media 2000, that really changed my perspective because it looks so much more scientific and less generic body building magazine type stuff. With the tempo and the rest period, the seconds all that kind of stuff. The double station super set, so it really piqued my interest, and then I approached a local body builder in Montreal he was a trainer, and I hired him to make- to write my programs in 98’ and he used the same approach. He kind of became my mentor, because every month I would go back to him, and he would explain to me the new program and show me exercises. He really helped me out improving my skill, the next was Larry Vinette- he’s a well-known body building prep coach right now.
Mac: Yep, I’ve seen his name around a lot.
Stephane: Yeah, he’s pretty big, he’s pretty popular. He’s an IFBB pro as well, so he was more like of a true live mentor, but as far as pioneers there was Charles Poliquin. Obviously Al Vermeil was big influence.
Mac: Sorry who is Al Vermeil for the listeners?
Stephane: Yeah, so Al Vermeil-he’s actually one of the first professional strength coach, he’s the first guy who actually got paid to strength train people. So man, I think we have to go all the way back to the late 70’s and there was the Oakland Raiders who hired him. His brother was actually a NFL coach for Philadelphia, he goes in St. Louis Rams, and Kansas City chiefs. He was a sport strength coach, so he trained at the Chicago Bulls during Michael Jordan’s hey days, and all these things. So he’s been around forever, and he’s still there, he does courses and conferences all over the place, so a pioneer in the industry, so I learned from him. There was Ian King from Australia too, Charlie Francis, Eric Serrano, John Berardi, they were all people that influenced early on my training and or nutrition knowledge.
Mac: Yeah, that’s excellent. What are some of the craziest and most ridiculous trends and fads and gimmicks you’ve seen in this industry in your career?
Stephane: Yeah, I mean- This is an interesting question. The thing about the fitness industry is that it rotates all the time, like trends- I am thirty nine now, I started so early that I feel that I’ve lived enough to kind of see old stuff cycling back in right now. Which I find very very funny, like the latest example is like; the keto thing. In my opinion that was kind of big in the late 90’s early 2000 but it disappeared for a reason. It is not efficient. Especially for athletic training and now they bring exogenous ketones but the problem with that is, it’s been shown to really- it’s not really talked about but- its been shown to really wreck the whole gut flora.
Stephane: So now as you’re thinking, or improving your ketogenic performance but “so what?” if you’re wrecking your gut health which will in turn affect your immune response, which will in turn affect your performance. It’s another fad, that’s going to disappear like everything else, so the same thing with training. You have like; it’s an easy answer. You know the functional training craze.
Stephane: And it always comes back but under different terms, different models.
Mac: So breakdown what functional actually means there.
Stephane: The functional training trend is, -let’s say you’re a mixed martial artist- you’re a striker so then you would take either a weight that you wrap around your wrist or pulley and you start striking right? So you are mimicking your punch but with a loaded weight-
Mac: With resistance.
Stephane: So they think it’s more functional because you’re doing the movement pattern better of your sport, unlike let’s say barbell bench press, which has nothing to do with striking, coz you’re not striking with two hands holding a barbell, so that’s the reasoning, but the problem with that is; then you have neural physiology that’s not proper with loaded functional sports specific movement. Because the velocity of punches is very fast, so if you add weights that slows down the neural recruitment that recruits the actual motor units to – you need to go super-fast-so you’re basically teaching your nervous system to become slower. So there’s nothing functional about it.
Mac: And you’re also messing up the deceleration aspect of the movement as well, when you add resistance to the punch.
Stephane: Very true.
Mac: It’s a totally different motor skill. It’s funny, I was talking about this with Yas Par, recently, it just has no place in training for strikers whatsoever, and the guys that you see doing it often they’re doing it, they’re having great success in their sport in spite of these stupid practices.
Stephane: Yeah. Sometimes you can measure success better with taking somebody with limited athletic and fighting skills and really improving his athleticism for performance fighting, than having like a freak- genetically gifted- doing random workouts and then using him as an example what’s proper strength and conditioning training. Sometimes it’s very misleading.
Mac: Yes. Back to the functional thing. What exactly should functional like in inverted commas “functional training” look like for a mixed martial artist for example? What even does functional mean? Do you want to delve in as deep as Zatsiorskiy’s “Concept of dynamic correspondence”, or how far do you want to go with it?
Stephane: As much as I like Zatsiorsky, is my favorite training author. I think that is a little- the examples are a little too extreme it’s a little too sports specific for my taste.
Stephane: But that being said I respect him immensely for what he brought to the game. Here is how I look at it, I am going to quote colleague of mine, Ryan Finley, coz I love the way he describes it “When it comes to athletic training, weight training is basically GPP for sports”, just general preparation.
Mac: Anything with a barbell?
Stephane: Doesn’t matter, weight training is a general preparation for your sport. There’s nothing that’s ever going to be immensely specific about what you’re doing in the weight room for your sport, but you’re using the weight room to build the foundational base of strength and power that once built that you go and transfer in the practice of your sport. But you cannot use the weight room or weight training exercises to transfer right there in the weight room into an athletic action of your given sport.
Mac: Right, mimicking movements...
Stephane: Yeah, that’s just that how it works. But at the same time, if I am doing a back squat and my athlete got from a 100 kilo back squat to a 150 kilo back squat over 18 months of training, now I know that my athletes are stronger. So assuming that throughout the period of time, he went and practiced the sport and got accustomed to the new level of strength and was able to transfer it into his task. Now I know that by nature his fighting power strength will be much higher now, that being said on one point in time, you reach a point where there’s such a thing –sometimes depending on the sport- as enough strength or too much strength which makes it at that point you need to get your athletes to be a little bit more powerful, which is all about rate of force development. Moving the force velocity curve to the left, so at that point you use techniques like dynamic effort, plyometric, myotatic to transfer that new found strength into more powerful or faster contraction that then –again by practicing your sport – you’ll be able to transfer that into a faster harder punch. But the weight training is never specific on the functional component per say.
Mac: Yeah, we see lots of examples of that, strength coaches- again in inverted commas- trying to mimic sports movements on the weight room floor using resistance and things like that. But back to what you were saying about transferring the strength into rate of force development and power. One thing Joel Jamison says in a lot of his work- is; the higher levels of sports that you get to the one thing that most sports have in common is that the game moves so much faster, that the speed of the action is so much faster, so the higher the level of your sport you want to get to, or you are already at- the greater the need for transferring your strength levels into explosive powerful movements and contractions. Would you agree with that?
Stephane: Yeah. I totally agree. But it’s a balance thing. You might have an athlete- I’ll take American football, analogy just coz it’s the sport I know the most. But there’s this wide receiver, he weighs about 80 kilos, and he’s super-fast, but his strength level is quite poor but his nervous system he’s able to tap in a high amount of fast rich fibers, so he’s exerting a lot of forces and speed even though his strength base Is not that high.
Stephane: But for him, if I wanted him to become even faster, my focus would not be on fast training methods it would be on getting him stronger, because that’s his biggest lack, and if he has a stronger base then once you build that up, you retransfer the stronger base again to speed and then he can be faster, but on the flip side if you have a guy who squats 200 kilos but is slow, then you have to focus on training on speed methods. It really is a balance question too.
Mac: Right. Would you say that same principle applies to fighters in combat sports, say for example you’ve got the equivalent of your 80 kilo wide receiver, is say 65-70 kilo fighter, who doesn’t have a huge amount of strength but actually is quite fast and moves quite well in the cage or in the ring, would you say that the need there is to build levels of strength in that fighter before you’re able to get any more speed and power out of him?
Stephane: Yeah, I think it’s the exact same thing. One thing I always tell the students is; the reason why I liked training so many different athletes in my career and not just specify on one, is in my point of view is I never train a MMA fighter, I never train a Football player, I train an athlete.
Stephane: So if I can get a human being to be a better athlete then it’s up to them in their sport to transfer that, coz I can never make someone a better football player, a better rugby player, a better fighter, I can only make him a better athlete, that’s the task of a strength and conditioning coach. It’s their job to transfer that, now as a strength coach though, you need to be able to provide the tool to get them to be a better athlete and to become a better athlete the simplest thing to improve athleticism is to work on the biggest weakness.
Stephane: So if it’s strength, you work on that, if it’s high hypotrophy because it sometimes can be hypotrophy you work on that.
Mac: Like a small wide receiver, you want them to get bigger?
Stephane: Exactly. Because if you have bigger muscle fibers you have more potential for force development, to create tension. To be fast you also need like load.
Mac: Yep. You need resistance.
Stephane:Yeah. They both come hand in hand. To me it’s always the same thing. The sport at a certain point it doesn’t really matter in the sense that it always comes back to train what’s the weakest link. Coz if you are a MMA fighter, NFL wide receiver, a hockey player, if one evaluates you, your spinal erectors are super weak, it doesn’t matter which one of the three sports you’re performing you’re not going to perform to your best.
Mac: Yeah, that’s right. So I mean true functionality is first building that foundation of strength from which you can perform your skills in the sport more effectively or you can transfer that foundation of strength into high levels of rate of force development and things like that?
Stephane: Yeah, so that’s why in a way- when you have your off season- like the general preparation phase- the earlier phase of training- up to a certain point it’s very similar between different sports. Because you are training multiple movement patterns and weaknesses and on and on , so it’s only once you hit these specific preparation phase that now the demands of the sport, the predictor lifts of the sports becomes the main focus. That’s where you fine tune your athlete development to the sport he’s practicing but at the base it’s very similar for everybody.
Mac: Yeah, and just on that with Predictor lifts. What would you suggest would be some of the predictor lifts for mixed martial arts?
Stephane: Yeah, I mean, it kind of depends on the style, but as a general rule of thumb- as far as lower body goes- there’s two that I really like, the front squat and the dead lift.
Stephane: The reason why I like the deadlift is hip extensor strength can be a very dominant factor in a fighter’s arsenal but the reason why I also like the front squat is, it’s a good indication of athletic skills, dynamic flexibility -but also all that for your lower body-, but all that combined with upper back strength and stability because you have to be able to stabilize the barbell in front of your body in the front rack position, which requires a lot of triceps, lats, wrists flexibility. A lot of mid-back stabilization properties so I think it has a good carry over to mixed martial arts so that’s a very important area. Then as far as upper body goes, if we’re looking at flexors, chin up is obviously an obvious one.
Mac: Any particular grip, angle for the chin up?
Stephane: I mean most of the normative data is on the supinated grip, coz it’s been the most= tested, but – I would say- if you want to be more specific with your own group of people I would probably go neutral.
Mac: Neutral yeah.
Stephane: But there’s just more in normative data on the supinated grip.
Mac: supinated, okay.
Stephane: And then if we’re looking at pressing or extensor exercises for upper body, the inclined press stands to be kind of the good general pressing exercises as far as predictor lift.
Mac: Right it seems to be the gold standard.
Mac: Just for the listeners could you just explain a little bit about what predictor lift actually does, why it’s called that?
Stephane: Yes. Okay, so let’s say that you have your athletes, whatever mixed martial arts he performs in, you determine as a strength coach that his upper body predictor lift is inclined press, and his lower body predictor lift is front squat. Okay, so now, the predictor lift, it doesn’t necessarily mean - especially in a sport with as much variables as mixed martial arts-that by proving his front squat and or inclined press that it absolutely means you’re going to improve his win/loss ratio of performance but it still gives you an indication- as a strength coach- it gives you a specific exercise to gauge the progress on, to give you an idea of how good your athlete’s progress on through a specific preparation phase. So if you have a twelve, sixteen or twenty four week, specific preparation before fighting season, and you focus on bringing up that inclined press through that period of time and you went from an 80 kilo incline to a 105 kilo incline, well that gives you a measurable outcome on the lift that represents a good general extensor strength perspective on what’s going on with your athletes, but it gives you an idea “okay, he’s gained fifteen kilos inclined press, that’s a good off season, that’s a good program” if on the flip side he’s only gained two kilos, then you as a strength coach you need to reassess the training program; there’s something wrong that happened because the progress wasn’t there. That’s why I like predictor lift, it’s just a tool for the strength coach.
Mac: Excellent, that’s great. Is there anymore back to the fads and gimmicks is there anything else that you’ve seen maybe specifically for fighters?
Stephane: I think I’ve seen this with fighters a lot, but I don’t even know what’s the name of it. But that mask wear that they.
Mac: The altitude training mask?
Stephane: That to me is a funny one. I don’t think there’s much carry over, I don’t think that data is very significant on it. Why don’t just do conditioning training?
Stephane: That’s, to me that’s a very funny one.
Mac: It’s just makes it more difficult to breathe.
Mac: Yeah, doesn’t actually simulate altitude training at all.
Stephane: Not really.
Stephane: I don’t know what it is, to me it doesn’t simulate anything.
Mac: [Laughter] It’s funny, it is another thing that Yas and I were talking about the other day. What about on the positive side, what are some of the biggest break throughs you’ve seen in terms of science and practice in strength and conditioning these days , and who have you seen that’s doing that stuff really well?
Stephane: Honestly I think that the,-I don’t know if it’s a breakthrough in terms of “ it just happened” but it’s still pretty recent in the strength and conditioning world , what I think is the importance now that strength and conditioning coaches have and exercises you’ll just have of how the well central nervous system can affect the training outcome. I think that in the past- because in exercise physiology- a lot of the professors from – who kind of grew up in the 70’s- have more of a metabolic mentality to things, so they always look at training through metabolic scope of view. I think they missed on the importance of CNS recovery for sports performance, and I think that’s been a bit more talked about in the last 15 years. There’s more research on it. So the thing is, if you can optimize the training of your athlete- specially MMA- by having longer rest period, higher quality reps. So what I mean by that is, a lot of MMA training sometimes that you see, it’s still old school, it’s still very metabolically driven. They might do like 15-20 reps with like 30 seconds rest between sets, but the problem with that is –yes you’re training your metabolic component of your body, but that’s what you do when you practice your sport- you should use weight training to train the central nervous system to be more efficient at recruiting higher threshold motor units so that he was an athlete to become more powerful. But the only way it can do that is by giving enough rest to your central nervous system to recuperate to be able to go and tap into these higher threshold motor units again in the next,- second , third, fourth ,fifth set. And you also need sets, you cannot develop power or central nervous efficiency with only one two or three sets. There comes a point in time where you need four five six sets, because it’s about the law of repetition. So you need to expose CNS to repetitive high quality repetitions and I would also add to this that the concentric contraction should always be as fast as you can
Stephane: - the intent should be as fast as you can- so if you’re training at 90% of your 1RM, the bar speed might not be that fast but you want the intent to be as fast as possible, and just that will help you target higher threshold motor units. Because training- especially in MMA- is you have limited time for weight training- you really want to make sure that every rep you do is of the highest quality, to optimize central nervous system output. So that to me, I think is a big breakthrough and it’s not a sexy one, but it’s a very important one and that’s for sure one that was not really touted on in the 70’s and even in the early 80’s.
Stephane: I think Charlie Francis in track and field, in the early 80’s, probably one of the first-
Mac: Pioneer right?
Stephane: Yeah. He was not a strength coach but he was a track coach to kind understand the importance of the central nervous system. So I think that’s a big missing link.
Mac: Yeah, that’s great. I don’t know about discovery but I mean putting more importance on nervous system efficiency in athletes and in training and prescribing rest and recovery protocols to support high levels of nervous system efficiency. Is that kind of what you meant?
Stephane: yes, so you mean like in a micro cycle, so let’s say you have like recovery days and stuff like that?
Mac: Yes indeed. Well, specifically for fighters, out of all the fighters that I’ve worked with, it’s a trend among all these guys, they chronic under-resters, they just aren’t resting enough, cramming in too many training sessions and so it kind of limits the amount of high quality nervous system training you can do because there’s that recovery deficit.
Stephane: Yes exactly.
Stephane: Because of that- because you might only be training two or three times a week- then it’s even more so important that your training session is of the highest quality. These are the only shot you have of getting there. Because MMA fighters are – their volume of training is so high- then taking recovery methods, using recovery methods that would improve CNS output becomes very beneficial. The simplest one is to improve sleep, and then you have nutrients, - I really like Inositol, taking Inositol –what’s good about that is it helps replenish neural transmitters. So then your training on the next day can potentially have much higher quality because you have refreshed pool of neurotransmitters when you’re training.
Stephane: So stuff, simple stuff like that can make a big difference.
Mac: Okay, so what about some other techniques for active recovery and restorative measures; ice baths, cryo-chambers stuff like that. You see a lot of MMA fighters doing that kind of thing, what’s your take on that sort of recovery?
Stephane: Yeah. Cryotherapy I am on the fence with because some studies shows that it’s beneficial some studies shows that it can have acute response in cortisol output, which is actually counter to recovery.
Mac: Sorry, it creates a spike in cortisol?
Stephane: Yeah because of the cold,
Mac: Right, okay.
Stephane: Like your body’s response to that stimulus is creating is more cortisol, which is a stress hormone.
Stephane: So then I am a little “iffy” on this one, so then you have methods like a sauna, but again I am on the fence. Coz I’ve played a lot with those, some of them have great results with, other athletes you don’t. So I just, haven’t really found even the same thing with IV, because IV is very beneficial with overworked athletes who’s nutrition is not optimal but if you’re pushing optimal nutrition to your athlete and he’s taking multivitamins and minerals on a consistent basis and then you go overload him on an acute dose of vitamins and minerals- well the effect of it won’t be this drastic because there not
Mac: There’s not a deficit.
Stephane: Their not crazy deficient, those minerals the effect are not great, but then if he McDonalds one meal a day all the time and he’s fatigued, then you put him on that, that’s going to have a marked effect.
Stephane: There’s so many but I don’t find that they’re a big difference maker for the most part- even massages the same thing. I kind of like- I’ll leave it to the athlete, I made it clear to them that they have to sleep well coz that’s one proven recovery method, proper sleep, so I always make sure that’s emphasized. I tell them to do activities that relaxes them as much as possible, some it’s reading, some it’s playing like video games, whatever it might be- I don’t care- as long as they relax. Because that’s the thing, they work so much, they train so much, I don’t want to add more burden. Even like yin type activities like Yoga, for some athletes that already have like 15-20 training units per week, if I tell them to add yoga coz it’s a Yin activity and it’s going to help relax them, well some athletes that stress them out. They didn’t want to do those stuff, they felt like I was adding a burden to them. So then it didn’t help their recovery because it increased their stress. So it’s really individual.
Mac: Makes perfect sense. What about floatation tanks? Sensory deprivation tanks. Do you have any experience on those?
Stephane: I am not familiar with those?
Mac: Okay, no worries. So that’s something we’ve had a small amount of success with, but it’s highly dependent on the individual, whether the individual can actually shut off and fully relax in that moment. Again to me it seems like, from what you’re saying, it’s about finding the right recovery methods for the individual.
Stephane: Yeah, because there are so many of them. Now we have a client here that started playing with those frequency - that helmet you wear- that’s sends frequencies to the brain-
Mac: No I’ve never seen that.
Stephane: It kind of helps relax the brain and improve hormonal profile, it’s pretty new, so playing around with that. But again it’s hard to measure these things.
Mac: [Laughter] Yeah, okay, what’s this thing called?
Stephane: I forgot the name of it.
Stephane: It’s fairly new, to be honest.
Mac: Okay, I’ll do some looking around into that.
Stephane: A lot of NFL guys have been experimenting with this during the off season.
Mac: yep, Okay. And what other things can our listeners be looking out for to help improve the neuro-muscular efficiency in their training?
Stephane: I would say that it’s important to cycle in phases where you gonna use training methods in which speed is going to be the more emphasized,- beyond just accelerating the concentric, but even phases where the eccentric portion will be faster or phases where you have to create the reactive strength, which means- it’s super-fast eccentric ,that you have to decelerate last minute and then have super-fast concentric contractions, which base of stretch shortening cycles, methods like that. It’s just like progress in strength training , is just that, finding methods that keeps you progressing over time that –the difficulty level is always a little bit harder. So I think the first thing is accelerating concentric, then it’s implements that pushes you to accelerate the concentric more like chains or bands but then you have to learn to absorb high forces and transfer it into a fast concentric quickly. It’s all about methods like that but it has to be cycled properly through the training.
Mac: Okay, that’s excellent. With all that said, and everything I know about your skill set and your background in the industry, how would you describe your specialty in the strength and conditioning field?
Stephane: I mean on a general standpoint my specialty is team sports training. But more specifically somehow people pigeonhole me as an expert in program design, which I feel like I am pretty good at it, but I feel that my biggest skill set is at coaching. Queuing , getting an athlete in front of me and seeing what’s the weakness in the lift, what to correct to improve the lift as fast as possible, so, sometimes I have people who come to me, they can’t do a squat, they have no dynamic flexibility, they’re leaning forward too much, they don’t have any dorsiflexion, and me it’s like queuing them and get them to squat quickly. So sometimes it might take three four, five sessions , instead of just being a training program writer but not understanding the actual application of coaching , so that I think is probably my biggest strength as far as the strength and conditioning industry goes.
Mac: It’s funny, coz your reputation and outside perception of your specialty is as a programming expert whereas in reality you see your specialty as; in the trenches hands-on coach, and I think bridging that gap is a sign of a real high-level coach, rather than being someone who is in the white lab coat writing very very intellectual programs but never spending any time in the trenches, and then you’ve got the guys in the trenches all day who don’t really understand or care about the science and the programming behind everything, it’s kind of- you are that meeting between those two worlds.
Stephane: Yeah, it was interesting for me because in today’s social media world, people really know me from being a Poliquin group instructor and then the book I wrote, that’s the perception of people, and it was so program design heavy that’s what they see of me, but they forget the fact that I spent over 30,000 hours in the gym , training clients and looking at their training and analyzing their training. Sometimes experience it’s hard to beat.
Mac: Yeah, exactly. I am glad that you brought up the book, “66 strategies to program design”, I think I actually forgot to introduce you as an author. So everybody Stephane is also an author of a very very highly regarded book in the strength and conditioning industry called “66 strategies to program design”. Could you please just share just a little bit about that book?
Stephane: Yes, this book I really wanted to target high level coaches. It was not a book that was meant for general pop. It was kind of trying to show the “behind the scenes” of program design but with aspects that are never talked about. Because it seems like it’s always the same things, it’s about training system that, this training system, put this one together, but training is much more complicated than that. So I really wanted to go deep of what’s behind it, and then the story about it is- 66 strategies to program design- it’s based on the study that demonstrated that it takes sixty six days to create a new habit, instead of the old three week that people thought it was, so my thing I was like –I am going to write each strategy every day for sixty six days to create the habit of writing and then the book would be “sixty six strategies “ and you as a reader you read one strategy a day , to get into the habit of learning about training and program design. So that’s kind of like the story, so I wrote the book in sixty six days and it was live on Amazon on the sixty seventh day. I really wanted to be a stickler to the idea behind it. So I am pretty happy with the process, it was hard but a fun process.
Mac: That’s fascinating, I’ve never heard of a process ,- a writing process – like that. And I love how you’ve tried to engage the reader into a sixty six day strategy into learning just as you’ve built that strategy of writing every day. Have you continued writing?
Stephane: I have, but not to the same extent- because last year I was so focused on building KILO, so moving from Rhode Island, here, finding a facility, getting the equipment and all the behind the scenes, now the focus is on building that group training.
Stephane: But I mean to get back to that book- to me success in any endeavor it’s about habit, so you have to create habits, like the same thing with training and nutrition.
Stephane: You have to be consistent with your training and with your nutrition. That’s how you get the results.
Mac: Yeah, absolutely, that’s fantastic. How have you –just back to the book- found it received so far?
Stephane: I mean- I’ve only had great comments about it. I doubt that- I am sure there’s some people who didn’t like it, but obviously they didn’t reach out to me to tell me. So the only feedback I got was very positive, like on Amazon it was all positive reviews. What was kind of fun is like for a while it was –in the sports category- the best seller in Australia, in the UK and in Canada, so that was kind of cool. It’s fun too, because you see- you get the report from Amazon, every month, and you see where the sales come from, it’s fun to see it’s from all over. India, Malaysia everywhere, so it’s nice to know that you can impact the training of so many coaches.
Mac: It’s fantastic and amazing. Where-just out of interest- in the world has given you the most sales?
Stephane: The United States.
Stephane: But I think that’s just a volume thing, there’s 330 million people, but per capita, I would say it’s probably Canada and Australia.
Mac: Yeah, it’s great. Alright, so why don’t we move along a little bit. For the listeners , this facility that we are here right now, KILO Strength Society, as I’ve probably mentioned three or four times- it’s such a breathtaking facility to be in. It’s almost like you’ve taken the floor plan and the best parts of the Poliquin group facility- the training facility- and just one upped everything, you’ve enhanced that similar kind of environment -that similar kind of layout- and just put your own touch on it. Could you tell us a little bit more about the founding of KILO and the facility itself?
Stephane: Yeah. So KILO, I would start it as- December 2015 I was on vacation in Dominican Republic and I was thinking –I am thirty eight at that time- I was thirty eight, I am like it’s time I do my own thing and I’ve always wanted to have my own facility. So I am get started, I am ready, I need to do it. Just for my career, so I woke up the next morning with the name KILO in mind. Like KILO “Wow,” I think it fits because I didn’t want to –so many people like they call their business by their names- but to me I didn’t want that because I wanted to create something that would go beyond just me and a personal standpoint.
Stephane: So KILO, to me was simple, easy , anybody from anywhere in the world can read that word, can understand it and it represented training, KILO, the measure of weight. And then I’ve been doing one on one for so long in my career and I really wanted to shift that to group training and I wanted to basically use the experience I have had training athletes and create a group training program that would resemble that, but that would be accessible for general pop. But that would somehow -even though it’s group training- have a periodization component to it. It’s impossible to do perfect periodization in a group setup because you always have people joining at many different times in the year-
Mac: Of course.
Stephane: -but I feel I was able to create the best of both world in terms of periodization and the concept of group training. Alexandra Bernardin and I we created two years’ worth of training, it’s 384 training programs total and they’re all planned and periodized and they all workout in our facility with this space that we have, the six power racks that we have, and that’s the interesting thing is; a lot of people they go to a gym-they open up a gym-, they have their equipment and they create their group training programs, but us , we created the programs before we got the equipment.
Stephane: So we-each and every piece that you see here, it’s because it’s used at one point or the other in the two years worth of training.
Mac: Purpose built facility.
Stephane: Yes. So everything ,like the layout- the reason why there are six power racks, the reason why there’s the space between the series of posterior chain machines, and the power racks, all of that is with the group training in mind. We’ve always been very goal and focus driven, by making this facility. So even like the colors- the reason why the KILO logo is that kind of black and that turquoise it’s because these colors represented what we wanted to accomplish. Which was more like a gender neutral , a rich high quality to it, that would attract higher end people of both sexes but that still perceive this as serious, so colors is very important, that’s why big companies spend so much on research and branding for the right colors to attract people. So that’s kind of what we did and when people come in and they see the colors and even of the upholstery, it’s very South California on top of it, so people will get –it’s very attractive for them. I think if you want to make a good business product, you have to think about as many tangibles as you can.
Mac: Of course. Tell us what are some of the challenges that you guys faced putting all of this together? Not just the facility itself –because you told me a little bit about that in person- but in terms of programming for groups and things like that, the whole setup.
Stephane: The biggest issue was to find a way-because our group training is called PRIMEIGHT-, it’s based of the eight primary exercise that I’ve always used in the my training of athletes to gauge progress.
Mac: And what are they?
Stephane: They’re the squat, front squat, deadlift, overhead press, inclined press, bench press, dip and chin up.
Stephane: Okay, so these eight are the core of my training, but the thing is-so the way we split training is- the A series is the primary exercise, the B series are the assistance exercise and the C exercise are the remedial. But the problem is- usually if I am training an athlete then I decide to incorporate chains in the training of my athlete- on squats for instance- because it’s part of the periodization at one point. I will usually put the chains in the A series on the primary exercise because that’s when the CNS, the nervous system is fresher and you’ll be able to accelerate a little more, but now the problem is it’s a group training setup, so we start January 9- that’s when we open our facility and started the group training- so we had a client who was there January 9th , he’s starting the program, he’s training with us. He’s getting better, he’s improving, he’s getting stronger, his technique is better, but now –so today we’re in May- if I had a client who joins in May- that guy is not at the same level as the other guy.
Mac: Of course.
Stephane: So when the other guy is ready for chains, and the main program has chains on squat, then what happens to that new person? Chains is way too advance, he’s not there yet.
Stephane: So that was the problem, “Okay how can we implement these things?” , because I wanted our training to represent true training, and I wanted people to have a taste of cool special techniques.
Stephane: Got a taste of chains, eccentric training- obviously we’re not doing super maximal eccentric, coz that would be too crazy, but- Isometric training, weight releasers. So all these things I wanted them to try, but then I noticed it cannot be in the A series. So now what we did is, we found a way to integrate these in the B series on the assistance exercise. So this way even if they get in May and we have chains on the B series, at least the exposure is on the B series, so the duration of the exposure, it’s less sets, the intensity is a little bit less. So they get a taste of the special technique but without the grueling to wiping out potential of doing 25 minutes of heavy back squat with a chain.
Mac: Yeah right.
Stephane: That was a big challenge to make that happen, and but still being somewhat logical and effective.
Mac: And kind of making the training sexy, by having in those more advanced implements without detracting from strength gains in your A series-.
Stephane: Exactly. Basically the way we use are A series is; those PRIMEIGHT exercise , they don’t really change but it allows the client to rehearse the movement pattern unchanged, so they get better, more efficient at it and then we use the assistance work to help further the progress of the primary exercises.
Mac: Right, that’s excellent. What about in setting up the facility itself, what challenges did you guys come up against?
Stephane: There was a lot. For instance, we decided that we did not want to be in the industrial park or a business park because of the visibility and because we are not from Huntington beach, we’re not from California- we don’t know anybody in California- it’s not like, a lot of co-trainers sometimes they train in the gym then they go in the industrial park, but they bring with them like 20 of their clients. We didn’t have that opportunity so we needed visibility. So we needed to be in a commercial zoning area, but the problem is, a lot of strip mall in the United States- it’s either they don’t allow gyms- and even though we told them that we’re a private facility- their perception of a gym is a 100 cars at 5.00 pm, that clogs the parking lot. So it’s either they don’t accept that, or if they do accept gym they don’t accept startups.
Stephane: So it was very hard to find a good location with good visibility, with the size that we wanted. So that took a while , it was very challenging. Sometimes we found a place but the ceiling was only 8 feet high-it was too short- so it didn’t work. All these things. And then once we got the facility then everything has to be approved by the city- so there’s all these rules and regulation that you have to adhere to-. We all-because our goal is to build a long lasting product with KILO- we wanted to be by the books with everything.
Stephane: That was very important for us.
Mac: Of course. And what about getting closer to your opening date for KILO-for the actual facility- , as I understand you guys had a few hiccups with equipment and deliveries and things like that?
Stephane: I put a lot of emphasis on having a nice floor for the gym, and our first PRIMEIGHT training camp with students was December 5th so we needed the gym to be ready by that time for the camp coz we had twelve or thirteen people coming in that day, for those five days. The floor installed, crew comes in and they just wrecked the floor and it was unbelievable. There were seams everywhere, it was horrible. But we had no choice, we still put the machines on the floor and we did the course, but then after the course I told the installed crew company’s owner that it was unacceptable. So he came and when he saw the job himself, he couldn’t believe it, so he decided to replace the floor, but our opening was January 9th and then it was the Christmas holidays – then the manufacturing company who makes the floor- they only make that floor on demand so they had to manufacture the floor again. Basically he sent a different crew on January 5th and in four days they were able to take the equipment out, take the floor out, fix the cement floor underneath the floor-that the first crew didn’t do- put the new floor in, put the equipment back in four days , right in time for the opening. And now the job is flawless, there’s zero seams, everything looks great. It’s super sharp.
Mac: Looks really stunning. So, these guys to fix the job, did in four days, what the previous crew took two weeks to fuck up.
Stephane: Yeah, exactly. That was unbelievable.
Mac: Aw, that’s fantastic. So we’re here in Huntington Beach, which as most of our listeners would probably know is; historically Huntington is bit of a hot bed for mixed martial arts. All the way back to the days of Tank Abbott, in the first few UFC events that were held, Tank was one of the fan favorites. Through to Tito Ortiz who is also one of the most popular UFC fighters of all time. These guys were Staples in mixed martial arts early on and they were Huntington beach natives. The scene here in Huntington Beach for MMA has been quite strong from the early days of the sport. What’s your impression of the MMA scene here today?
Stephane: Yeah, I agree with you. It definitely seems like it’s well and alive. There’s so many mixed martial arts gyms all over the town, Kings MMA, ton of Gracie Barra spots, there’s also even a ton of more traditional martial arts- like Wing Chun, all these kind of things. But to be doing well it seems alive-we’re lucky here at KILO, because in the same strip mall as the KILO gym there’s a Gracie Barra facility. Because I do have experience in the past training mixed martial artists, that could definitely be a good hot bed for us to get KILO a little bit more involved in the Huntington beach community with mixed martial arts.
Mac: Absolutely. So you haven’t tried to make any inroads over there to Gracie Barra?
Stephane: Yeah, we met the owners, super nice lady- so we are in the talks to try to do some type of a partnership but we just want something fair for both parties. So that’s on the works.
Mac: That’s fantastic. That’s one very lucky Jiu Jitsu club.
Stephane: Yeah [Laughter]
Mac: On the topic of fighters in MMA, all that kind of stuff- from your experience- what are some of the key principles for strength and conditioning training that fighters should be looking at?
Stephane: I really think that posterior chain strength, and by posterior chain I mean everything from the calves, well the achilles tendons , the calf, the hamstring the glutes the lower back, the upper back to the neck are probably the most important yet most under trained muscles in the MMA arsenal, because most of the power comes from your posterior chain, most of the stability comes from the posterior chain. If you look at most- because of my background with NFL players- lot of the studies and concussions which is something that’s happening in mixed martial arts as well- can be prevented with stronger neck muscles. When you are short with time, I feel that neck extensors is what you get the most bang for your buck with, if you have more time you can definitely focus on lateral muscle and there’s even this new-I forget the name of it- but it’s this new head harness-
Mac: The iron neck?
Stephane: The iron neck, that allows you to do rotational work, I think that’s pretty clever tool. It’s a little pricey, but if you train a lot of fighters, I think that might be something worth considering. Because it’s very clever to be able to work a rotational neck strength with a pulley system.
Stephane: For a constant tension- easier to control like the good old towel. Yeah neck muscles- not only that, if you’re training the neck you have to train all contraction modalities. You cannot just always do isotonic controlled reps all the time, you also need to have strong eccentric strength to withstand blows. You need to have some sort ballistic strength component, isometric strength in certain position when fighting. So you need to take into account all of these contraction modes into your neck training, but then if we go for posterior chain then we go to chin up, go to deadlift, that’s why deadlift is also an exercise I like to use as a predictor lift, because it’s a good posterior chain builder. Yeah, so that I think for me is the biggest missing link.
Mac: Yeah, posterior chain, right from the achilles all the way up to the neck extensors.
Mac: Yeah, absolutely. It’s fantastic. And you’re right, it’s so neglected, so few strength coaches are talking about the entire posterior chain for fighters. So I think that’s something that the audience could get a lot out of. We are going to have to start thinking about wrapping this up mate. I’ve only got a couple of questions left for ya. Firstly, what are some of the most valuable lessons you’ve learnt through your own experimentation and developing your own ideas?
Stephane: Take care of your data, don’t be lazy as a coach when you are training a client. Don’t be careless about writing all the sets and reps, and issues or injuries or tweaks that your client might have with the training program you give them, because it’s only by being thorough and analyzing your work and your client’s numbers, that you can actually become a better coach. And that maybe is the whole programming component I was telling you about, because that allows you to tweak and improve whichever training system you’re working with. But if you don’t –if you’re careless- if you don’t write down your training programs or if you write it down on a sheet of paper, you give it to your client, your client fills out the sheet of paper and his month program is done, then he keeps the sheet, then you give him a new sheet but you don’t tally back the information. Well then, you don’t have tangible numbers to build a decent product because you don’t know the outcome.
Stephane: So I think that’s a big mistake a lot of younger coaches do. I guess I was foreseeing it from early on, because I’ve always been meticulous about it and also when I worked in that commercial gym in Montreal, we were 35 trainers, and we all had to fight to get clients, and because I was serious about being a serious strength coach I wanted serious clients. So what I did, I always had a notepad, I always had a stopwatch around my neck, I always had my pen, I would always count the reps out loud and I would even count the tempos, just because I understood that when you’re coaching a client it’s not just about the client looking at the client you’re training, it’s about the other clients in the gym looking at you, shopping for their own coaches.
Stephane: So if they saw I was extremely professional and very attentive to detail and looking at every aspect of my clients, I knew they were looking at me and analyzing it. If they were serious they would perceive me as a more serious coach so then would hire me. So it took maybe 18 months before I had a good base but a very serious clients and my retention was great because my results were better because they were more serious to start with. But on the positive side on top of it, it allowed me to have better data, more accurate data, because they were more serious trainees.
Mac: Yeah, I got it. So protecting your data, looking after your data, at all costs, what are some of the best ways you’ve seen to do that , in terms of software or different organizing systems?
Stephane: Yeah, as far as software- I am using the software Vitruviant.com by Poliquin group. I like it because everything is automated , it allows to see your client’s weights and sets, tonnage, poundage , predicted 1RM, total reps, average weights, so all this data that I like to use in my own training, it allows me to see it automatically. So as soon as they are done with their training program and they enter their weights and they click save, I have access to this. So I can better tailor the progression of my client’s training. That for me is a very useful tool, I know others, they use Google spreadsheets, whatever it might be- whatever system that fits you best, but for me Vitruviant is just the quickest, most efficient way of doing it.
Mac: Yeah, it gives you all the feedback you need, in order to write progressions, based on; if there’s a weak spot or weak lift from the current program you are fully aware, then you can adapt the upcoming program to address that.
Stephane: Yeah, and then I am a little old school with that, but then I have an old school binder with all of my client’s files, and then I just tally up the information and build my periodization template in that binder. So it’s a combination of that binder and that Vitruviant software that allows me to do my work.
Mac: That’s awesome, I love it. I do the same thing. Except though I use Google spreadsheets.
Mac: Alright, there was one more question for you. Are there any books or resources that you could recommend for our listeners for anything we’ve spoken about today, or anything in general that’s specific to fight trainers?
Stephane: This I find it very difficult because I find that most books by trainers and strength coaches are too system based. So it’s very hard for a reader or upcoming strength coach to get a good grasp of what’s going on and how to actually really apply it on your own. That’s why I am a big fan of younger coaches reading the old school textbooks, where it’s more scientific data because if you can understand the concepts of protein degradation, muscle motor unit activation, recovery curves-all these things- then you can better understand all the other systems and or create your own system because you understand everything that’s behind strength and conditioning.
Stephane: So for that matter –I mean we touched on him earlier, Vladimir Zatsiorsky, “Science and practice of strength training” that’s my favorite book. Now obviously there are things in it that are maybe antiquated but for the most part it’s a very good , very in-depth training methodology book. “Super training” by Mel Siff, it’s a classic.
Mac: Verkhoshansky and Mel Siff.
Stephane: Verkhoshansky and Mel Siff, that’s a classic. There’s a ton of good books like that. “Physiology of training” by Gregory Whyte, it’s another great one I really like- that’s more recent- that’s like 2006 I think. This is what I suggest, it’s not as much a training philosophy per say. As is more about knowing true training methodologies, and then you can make your own line on terms of philosophies- there’s so much out there.
Mac: Yeah, Understanding the organizing principles behind program design and training itself, so that you can create your own mark, and your own way of doing things. I suppose there’s so much value in that than just getting a system to plug into and not have to think about anything.
Stephane: Yeah exactly, I always-obviously with the Poliquin group background- I have often of coaching approaching me and say “Oh, Stephane, what do you think about the 6-12-25 and the 5 by 5?” and then the GBC etc. Great but, that’s just the training phase, that’s not really training. So I want people to learn what’s behind training, so if they want to use those -the systems when should they use them, how to pair them up, that’s the thing. There’s no real book on that. It’s up to you to understand training, soon you can figure that out.
Stephane: Coz I get that all the time because people see that I love periodization so they ask Steph, “What book did you read to know that? , “Which book do you suggest?”,none, I’ve never seen a good book on periodization, there’s like Tudor Bompa’s “Principles of Periodization” ,
Stephane: But it’s so, it’s so, Olympic coach type- doesn’t give you the grasp of strength training periodization.
Mac: He doesn’t tell you how to do it.
Stephane: No. It’s like you read that-Okay, yes that’s a macro cycle, that’s mesocycle, there’s a transition phase bla bla bla, so you get the big picture of it, but you still don’t –“Okay but now do I do eight reps here, four here or is it eight reps here, seven here”, or it’s like you don’t know any of that.
Stephane: From these books. So for me it’s, I would never say that reading is a waste of time, but it’s not reading that book that’s going to make you “Alright Now I am great at programming in periodization”.
Stephane: You don’t get that from these books.
Mac: It’s one of the beautiful things that I found out about this life as a strength coach is that, no one answers all those questions and answers all those problems for you, it’s not handed to you, you’ve got to actually go out and dig and research. You need to be passionate about these things in order to put your own systems together, in order to be great at this, and I think if anybody’s is looking for book to answer all those questions and simplify everything and have it all handed to them., they’re missing the point. They’re missing all the beauty of it.
Stephane: You’re 100% right and it’s also understanding where the author is coming from. So Bompa was a rowing coach- was a rowing sports coach- he was never a strength coach.
Stephane: So most of the data is relevant to him, but then you transpose it to you training your hockey players or the same thing with like Olympic lifting coaches-what they talk about like lift percentages- well that’s cool, but if you’re doing a clean and snatch there’s no tempo, it’s a very simplistic, variable free movement to analyze. So it’s easy to create data and normative data coz it’s always the same thing, but then if you’re trying to take this information and transpose it to a 5-0-1-0 bench press., where’s the correlation? So this is all. Like you said, it’s for you to understand and then you make sense of it.
Mac: Yeah. Where you take it is entirely up to you.
Stephane: And in the context of your own practice.
Mac: Yeah, that’s beautiful. It’s a beautiful thing. Before we tie this up, first of all, how can people get in touch with you and what’s this year hold for you, the rest of 2017, what does that look like?
Stephane: People can reach us at on our Facebook and Instagram page just KILO Strength Society or they can even go to our website kilostrengthsociety.com. As far as what’s coming this year, well , this next Friday, not this Friday but Friday June 9th we have the sports specific training camp starting. So it’s five days , it’s a training camp , it’s 2 x per day with sports specific methodologies with theory during the day. We have a hypertrophy training camp coming up in July, we have a power camp coming up in August, Strength camp in October and the PRIMEIGHT training camp in November. So that’s basically what’s coming for me. I don’t intend to travel yet this year, because I am just too busy with the facility here, but that’s something ,once here is more settled, I am willing to-interested in looking into offer some this content to people from around the world as well.
Mac: Well you have to keep us in the loop for any Australian stuff you might want to do.
Stephane: Yeah, Australia will definitely be a destination.
Mac: Absolutely, as you were saying most of your interest has been from Canada and Australia- outside of the States that is.
Mac: Alright , we’ll wrap it up there. Thank you so much for joining us.
Stephane: Thank you, was a pleasure.
Mac: I’ve had a great time, and thanks for everyone for listening.